Journals of the Senate
47 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1998, Canada
Journals of the Senate
Issue 42
Tuesday, February 24, 1998
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bryden, Butts, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Cogger, Cohen, Comeau, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doyle, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Forest, Gigantès, Grafstein, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Haidasz, Hays, Hébert, Hervieux-Payette, Jessiman, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, LeBreton, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Lucier, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Meighen, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Perrault, Pitfield, Poulin, Prud'homme, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia) , Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stanbury, Stewart, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wood,
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Government Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lucier:That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, February 25, 1998, at 1:30 p.m.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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With leave, The Senate reverted to Presentation of Reports From Standing or Special Committees. The Honourable Senator Callbeck for the Honourable Senator Kirby, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, presented its Seventh Report (Bill S-9, An Act respecting depository bills and depository notes and to amend the Financial Administration Act), with an amendment.The Report was then read by one of the Clerks at the Table, as follows:
TUESDAY, February 24, 1998
The Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce has the honour to present its
SEVENTH REPORT
Your Committee, to which was referred the Bill S-9, An Act respecting depository bills and depository notes and to amend the Financial Administration Act, has examined the said Bill in obedience to its Order of Reference dated Friday, December 12, 1997, and now reports the same with the following amendment:Page 5, clause 17: replacing line 36 with the following:
"makes final and irrevocable payment of the amounts owing to the clearing house"
Respectfully submitted,
MICHAEL KIRBY
Chair
The Honourable Senator Callbeck for the Honourable Senator Kirby moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Corbin, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Callbeck for the Honourable Senator Kirby, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, presented its Eighth Report (Bill C-5, An Act respecting cooperatives) without amendment.
The Honourable Senator Callbeck moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Forest, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
DELAYED ANSWERS
The Honourable Senator Carstairs tabled the following:News release entitled: "Revenue Canada Extends Measures to Assist Canadians Most Affected by the Ice Storm", prepared by the Department of Revenue Canada on February 18, 1998, being a response to a question raised in the Senate on February 10, 1998, by the Honourable Senator LeBreton.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-456S.
ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS
Pursuant to Rule 25(2), the Honourable Senator Carstairs tabled the following:Reply to Question No. 8, dated October 1, 1997, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Kenny, respecting the Alternative Fuels Act-Canada Ports Corporation. -Sessional Paper No. 1/36-457S.
Reply to Question No. 29, dated October 1, 1997, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Kenny, respecting the Alternative Fuels Act-Marine Atlantic Inc.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-458S.
Reply to Question No. 30, dated October 1, 1997, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Kenny, respecting the Alternative Fuels Act-Montreal Port Corporation.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-459S.
SPEAKER'S RULING
On Thursday, December 17, Senator Tkachuk and then Senator Kinsella claimed that a breach of privilege had occurred as a result of the premature release of certain information related to Bill C-2, an Act to establish the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board, while it was still before the Senate. As I indicated at the time, because both questions of privilege deal with the same question, I decided to consider them together.Speaking first, Senator Tkachuk said that the Government had shown contempt for Parliament in general, and the Senate and its members in particular, by making available on its web site CPP premium deduction tables as recently as December 10, prior to the passage of Bill C-2. This occurred despite the fact that Senator Tkachuk had received a declaration from the Government, in the form of a delayed response on December 4, that it did not intend to release such information until the Senate had completed its consideration of the bill.
In making his case, Senator Tkachuk acknowledged the likelihood that the dissemination of this material was inadvertent. Nonetheless, he argued that it constituted a serious question of privilege. He cited several parliamentary authorities and some rulings of the Speaker of the "other place" in justification of his position. At the core of Senator Tkachuk's argument is the claim that "being deliberately misled by the Government of Canada in relation to a bill which we are in the process of debating is an interference with my parliamentary duties and fundamentally and detrimentally affects my rights and the rights of all senators to discharge our duties as members of the Senate."
Taking a similar position and quoting from like passages from relevant parliamentary sources and Speakers' decisions, Senator Kinsella claimed that by publishing the document before the enactment of Bill C-2, the Government had pre-judged the work of the Senate and of its committees. In his view, this constituted a very serious contempt of the Senate and of the Parliament of Canada.
Following the statement of Senator Tkachuk, Senator Carstairs stated that neither the Department of Finance nor Revenue Canada had actually published or distributed, in printed form, the revised payroll deduction formulas. The Senator noted, however, that the formulas had been available briefly on the Revenue Canada internet site. According to her, this was a mistake and there was no intent to make it public. Revenue Canada, she said, had corrected the error and had apologized. As to some of the material which is still to be found on the site, Senator Carstairs explained that it now carries a disclaimer to the effect that the proposed changes will only become law if it is passed by Parliament. Senator Carstairs then tabled a letter from an official of Revenue Canada containing the text of the disclaimer.
In a second intervention, following the statement of Senator Kinsella, Senator Carstairs added that the draft formulas were prepared under authority of the Minister of National Revenue in preparation for the possible passage of Bill C-2. She reiterated her position that the hard copy distribution of the information would have been inappropriate before the bill was enacted. Senator Carstairs also accepted the position that the information should not have appeared on the internet without the disclaimer which was subsequently attached.
At this point, Senator Taylor joined in with some comments. While recognizing that it is annoying to be taken for granted, he asked what genuine remedy might be available in this case. Citing rule 47 of our Rules, he suggested that it would be futile to raise this issue as a question of privilege unless the Senate has the power to provide a remedy. Reading some citations from Beauchesne's, he then raised the notion of intent, that is whether the actions of the Government in this instance were deliberately untrue and improper.
The arguments then turned to the question of whether the material on the internet site constituted a publication. Senator Tkachuk certainly thought they did. So did Senator Lynch-Staunton. As to the disclaimer, the Leader of the Opposition explained that it "came in a hurry after they were found to be not only irregularly and prematurely published, but in contempt of Parliament." This action, he maintained, affected the rights and privileges of all senators and Members of the House. According to him, "This information or any information should not appear and be distributed, even if it is regarded as instructions, before any bill is given Royal Assent."
I want to thank all Honourable Senators for their participation in this debate. It certainly gave me much to think about during the adjournment.
First of all, I want to make it clear that even though notices of these questions of privilege were provided December 11, and the arguments were not presented before December 17, the Senate did agree to postpone them for several days. Therefore, I will not be assessing the questions of privilege with respect to whether or not they were raised at the first opportunity as is required under rule 43. I will take it as given that they were raised at the first opportunity.
As well, these questions of privilege are not affected in any way by the fact that Bill C-2 was passed by the Senate unamended on December 18, 1997 and enacted the same day. To my mind, these subsequent actions do not mitigate in any way the claims made by Senator Tkachuk and Senator Kinsella. In making my decision, I confined myself to the arguments that were presented and to the circumstances then prevailing with respect to the Senate's consideration of Bill C-2.
My role as Speaker is to determine whether there is sufficient evidence prima facie to permit a motion to be presented immediately for debate to refer the matter to the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders.
In this case, the action complained of, the premature release on the internet site of CPP withholding tables, is in the nature of a contempt rather than any violation of parliamentary privilege such as freedom of speech or freedom from arrest or molestation. While contempt is not as precisely defined as privilege, it is a serious matter when it occurs because it can infringe the authority of Parliament or the rights of parliamentarians to carry out their duties. Certainly this is what is alleged in the complaint raised by Senator Tkachuk and Senator Kinsella.
With respect to the question whether these payroll deduction tables were a publication when they were only available on an internet site, I think the answer is clear. It is a publication. Even though it was true that the material was not published in printed form, it is impossible to disregard the impact of computer technology which allows information to be available far and wide. There is no option but to accept the proposition that by putting the payroll deduction tables on a publicly accessible internet site, they were to all intents and purposes published and distributed.
Of greater importance or significance than the matter of the publication of this information is the question that Senator Taylor raised with respect to intent. In order for me as Speaker to rule that a prima facie case has been made, in this particular instance, I need to be reasonably satisfied that there was a deliberate attempt on the part of Revenue Canada to show disrespect to Parliament and the Senate when this document was loaded onto the internet. There has also to be some evidence that this action was undertaken with the purpose of deceiving or misleading the Senate as it deliberated on Bill C-2. In addition, there has to be some indication as to how this action interfered with the work of Senators. On each of these points, I do not believe that a sufficient case has been made.
In presenting his argument, Senator Tkachuk twice acknowledged that the premature release of the CPP premium deduction tables was probably inadvertent. More to the point perhaps, Revenue Canada recognized its error and, based on the letter tabled by the Deputy Leader of the Government, took some steps to rectify it. In the letter stamped December 16, Mr. Burpee, an Assistant Deputy Minister of Revenue Canada, explained why the tables were prepared in advance. He also noted that a "disclaimer" had subsequently been attached to the 1998 tables stating that the bill was currently before the Senate and will become law if it is passed. Such evidence does not suggest that there was any deliberate attempt on the part of the department to deceive Parliament or to prevent it from doing its work. Indeed, had the Senate decided to amend the bill in any relevant way, it would have been the task of Revenue Canada to adjust its tables as required.
That being said, I would remind Honourable Senators of the words spoken by Senator Carstairs who told us that this episode was a mistake and that it should not have happened. It is a fact that laws cannot be enacted until they have passed both Houses. While departments of government have a legitimate duty to keep citizens informed about changes to the law, that duty should never conflict, or appear to conflict, with the pre-eminent constitutional responsibilities of Parliament. In seeking to advise our fellow citizens of proposals to amend the law, government officials should never forget this basic fact. It is all the more objectionable in this case because Revenue Canada had confirmed in writing that it would not make any information available until the bill had become law. While I am prepared to accept that no contempt appears to have been committed, I find the actions of the department inexcusable.
Nonetheless, based on the presentations made to me on December 17, I do not find that a sufficient prima facie case has been made.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Taylor, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pépin, for the second reading of Bill C-4, An Act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.After debate, The Honourable Senator Berntson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Doyle, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Poulin, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, for the second reading of Bill C-17, An Act to amend the Telecommunications Act and the Teleglobe Canada Reorganization and Divestiture Act.
After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Poulin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 3 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting. Consideration of the Second Report of Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples (budget-study on Aboriginal governance), presented in the Senate on February 18, 1998.The Honourable Senator Watt moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Chalifoux, that the Report be adopted.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Doyle, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Orders No. 3 to 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Ghitter calling the attention of the Senate to the concerns expressed by Albertans with regard to the Senate as an institution: (a) its effectiveness, usefulness and viability; (b) alternative means by which to select members of the Senate; (c) the nature of its regional representation, particularly a desire to see equal numbers of Senators representing each province; (d) the length of term of office; (e) the role which a revised Senate might take at a national level; and (f) the powers which would be appropriate for it to exercise in harmony with the House of Commons.After debate, The Honourable Senator Gigantès moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stanbury, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Orders No. 17 (inquiry) and 1 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Grafstein, calling the attention of the Senate to Canada's policy respecting the Iraq crisis.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Gigantès moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stewart, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Orders No. 9 (inquiry), 47, 48 and 49, (motions) were called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Meighen, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kirby:
That the Senate urges the Government, in the February 1998 Budget, to propose an amendment to the Income Tax Act that would increase to 30 %, by increments of 2 % per year over a five-year period, the foreign property component of deferred income plans (pension plans, registered retirement savings plans and registered pension plans), as was done in the period between 1990 to 1995 when the foreign property limit of deferred income plans was increased from 10 % to 20 %, because:
(a) Canadians should be permitted to take advantage of potentially better investment returns in other markets, thereby increasing the value of their financial assets held for retirement, reducing the amount of income supplement that Canadians may need from government sources, and increasing government tax revenues from retirement income;
(b) Canadians should have more flexibility when investing their retirement savings, while reducing the risk of those investments through diversification;
(c) greater access to the world equity market would allow Canadians to participate in both higher growth economies and industry sectors;
(d) the current 20% limit has become artificial since both individuals with significant resources and pension plans with significant resources can by-pass the current limit through the use of, for example, strategic investment decisions and derivative products; and
(e) problems of liquidity for pension fund managers, who now find they must take substantial positions in a single company to meet the 80 % Canadian holdings requirement, would be reduced.After debate, The Honourable Senator Gigantès moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stewart, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 8 (inquiry) was called and postponed until the next sitting.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Milne moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Butts:That the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs have power to sit at 3:15 p.m. on Wednesday, February 25, 1998, even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Report of Operations under the Export and Import Permits Act for the year 1996, pursuant to the Export and Import Permits Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. E-19, s. 27.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-447.Report on the Implementation of the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1997, pursuant to article 37.3.3(h)(ii) of the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement, as ratified by the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement Act, S.C. 1993, c. 29.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-448.
Report of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade on the Annual Summary of Steel Permit Information for the year 1997, pursuant to the Export and Import Permits Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 13 (3rd Supp.), s. 1.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-449.
Summaries of the amended Corporate Plan for 1997-98 to 2001-02 and of the Operating and Capital Budgets for 1997-98 of the Canada Lands Company Limited, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 125(4). -Sessional Paper No. 1/36-450.
Report of the Northern Pipeline Agency, together with the Auditor General's report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1997, pursuant to the Northern Pipeline Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. N-26, ss. 13 and 14.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-451.
Report of the National Arts Centre, together with the Auditor General's report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1997, pursuant to the National Arts Centre Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. N-3, sbs. 17(2).-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-452.
Report of the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions on the Administration of the Pension Benefits Standards Act, 1985, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1997, pursuant to the Pension Benefits Standards Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 32, (2nd Supp.), s. 40.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-453.
Agreement for RCMP Policing Services made on January 1, 1998, between Canada and the province of New Brunswick, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-454.
Report on the Operations of the Small Businesses Loans Act, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1997, pursuant to the Small Businesses Loans Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. S-11, s. 11. -Sessional Paper No. 1/36-455.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Hébert moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C.:That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.